Now that we have announced the future Eshelchild is on the way many pregnancy-delivery issues arise as discussion in our home. Lydia wants to be open-minded about delivery because she thinks that if you come in with your list of natural things that are required you are destined for a C-section. I want a home-birth, but she is not too excited about it.One thing that Lydia and I do agree on concerns the manchild. If we have another boy we will not participate in the cultural norm called circumcision. We know that we cannot lord over people's consciences concerning these things, but I have much difficulty with this practice in our culture.
If you can stomach to watch it, this video shows a routine circumcision. It is 5 minutes long, but I do not think that most people could watch more than 2 minutes of it. One thing that would make this practice more stomachable is giving the infant some numbing drug so that he could not feel the pain. Hospitals do not give meds unless the parents ask for them. I need an Ativan just from watching!
Wow!
18 comments:
Umm, that did not need to be shared. Sick.
I don't see what the problem is, it's not like the kid is going to remember it. Besides this emotional argument against it, do you have a Biblical reason why we shouldn't do this to Stuart? I'd be interested to hear a theological argument against it.
I'll answer that. There is no theological argument against it or for it. It is a liberty issue. Parents need to decide what is best for their child. I agree that the child does not remember it, as evidenced by circumcised men. That is not the point.
But, I also believe that it is an unnecessary surgery. Much discernment is needed to decide if it is necessary or just cultural. If it is because one does not want their son to be different, well, how many people will your son be comparing himself too? Plus, it is an American thing. Rarely is it done in Europe or let alone Canada.
"But, it will prevent UTIs." Okay, well, then let's be consistent and help prevent UTIs in women! As for infections, there is a risk either way.
It is a personal decision. I always hope that new parents will just make INFORMED decisions. And, from reliable sources and up-to-date resources. Our parents' generation had different information.
Have fun studying that one! I have lots of info. for and against, if you need it. ;)
NL
Let me preface with this- I am not trying to start another parenting battle.
As I have said, I cannot lord over people's consciences concerning these things.
As for a theological reason,
The New Testament is clear on us not being under the law anymore and Paul is very clear about those who want to take away from that liberty we have in Christ- he says for them to cut the whole thing off.
But, American circumcision is not religious, it is cultural. So we would have to weigh the cultural reasons against scripture and see if it is a valid practice.
I say, no, it is not a valid practice and I would not recommend it to anyone. But, again, I am not lord of the conscience.
As for the ethics of 'they will not remember it'. That is not a valid Christian reason. Demensia and Alsheimers patients would not remember harm done to them either, but we still are called to protect them from harm.
Each family has to do what they think the Lord is calling them to- in my home it is not a practice that we endorse.
We know that we are in the minority- and that is okay with us.
Haha, Nate. We were writing at the same time. Funny how we kind of have different views, yet still against it. Interesting.
We are considering both sides on this one and will be making a decision that isn't based in emotion. We also won't be telling anyone what we're doing, I respect my son's privacy and suspect that he wouldn't appreciate declarations made about it on the internet.
There's no parenting battle here of course, just friendly debate.
As to the biblical question, there is evidence that the circumcision commandment entered the Old Testament well after the rest of the text was written. I won't bore you with the specifics. "Marked in Your Flesh" by Leonard Glick offers a detailed analysis.
With respect to a child's privacy, I agree. I also think children would want their bodies protected at least as much as their privacy. I know I would've.
"Manchild" is an awesome word. And that's all I'm saying about this.
Nate, Are you circumsised? If so, how will you explain it to your sons? I fear for the emotional pain a non-circumsised child can face, especially in adulthood. I have had 2 friends tell me their husbands have emotional scars from not being circumsised. Unfortunately, children cannot always make their own decisions and sometimes they don't always like the ones we make for them. But, I have found in my vast experience as a parent, teenagers think you are an idiot anyway. I have two words for you--GOOD LUCK.
On a more serious note, congrats on the new Eshelbaby. You know I love you guys and I think you are wonderful whatever you do.
Scary but true story--while I was a nursing student, there were 2 botched circumsicions at a certain hospital within a 6 week period. 2. Plastic surgeons had to come and fix the mess. Poor little babies.
What's the big deal about a discussion of circumcision? What does privacy have to do with it? Seems a bigger deal is being made out of this here than should be made. You'd think you were having a hermaphrodite and determining exactly what sex the baby should be. Chill out people, especially you, notliberal.
In this day and age (in the two senses of the word), I don't see any point in circumcision. As far as theological argument against it, notliberal, what's your point? That it should be done unless there is a valid theological argument against doing it? Can you find a biblical argument why it SHOULD be done? It almost sounds like basing the decision on emotion is as good a basis as any, and Nate & Lydia are/and have shown that they are capable of basing this decision on more than emotion.
Jeff, I didn't express an opinion on this subject one way or another. I was looking for an opinion from our seminary student and little more. And yes, there are privacy concerns with this subject. What 13 or 14 year old wants to know this was discussed about him in detail on the internet?
When I became a Jew I had to drop trough and go thru a "Ritual Circumsision". A doctor used a needle like the ones used to draw blood for a blood sugar test to draw a drop of blood from my bo wiggley...Didn't hurt one bit. Kind of embarrasing but no pain, just my pride. Thank G-d noone laughed!
the reasons for doing it are purely medical, in my opinion.
James
There are no medical reasons for routine circumcision. The Academy of Pediatrics DOES NOT endorse the practice since it has no purpose.
There are medical reasons for circumcision, but not routine circumcisions. God did not design our body with flaws that need to be removed at birth.
flaws maybe no, but there's certainly several parts of the body that can and sometimes need to be removed. i think a good parallel is the appendix, which has no known use in the human body. all it does is get infected and burst, releasing deadly toxins into the body. many people can live without ever needing to lose it but some need it removed.
the argument you made in your post seems to be that the practice is brutal. i think you'd be grossed out if you watched an appendectomy, as well. plus it leaves a nasty scar. that's not the point, really.
the point is it's obvious that it doesn't matter to God (anymore) whether the foreskin is on or off. it did back then only to mark his people; today his people are marked by baptism. so i agree with you guys that it's a "liberty issue" and basically just a choice that a parent makes, hopefully with the child's best interests in mind.
James
I am sure that the appendix is a good analogy of circumcision. It is, however, not a good analogy of ROUTINE circumcision.
I do believe that in rare cases there are medical reasons to do one of these procedures, but a routine circ is an unnecessary act.
Think if every infant's appendix was removed because it may or may not explode someday. Absurd.
Even worse, what if every infant girl had a mastectomy because it would CURE breast cancer in women (and it would). Again absurd.
I restate that it is a matter of conscience if people want to do this to their sons, but there is no good reason to do it, which made me question why we should bow to this vain custom of our culture?
Well, our hospital automatically gives anesthetic for circumcision. And that video didn't deter us in the least!
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